Saturday, May 30, 2009

Dream Act: Pros and Cons

The Dream Act is one of those most controversial issues in the immigration debate.

With Harvard president Drew Gilpin Faust recently endorsing the Dream Act, I thought it'd be a good opportunity to hear from some of the leading minds on both sides of the debate.

Some of you probably read the New York Times’ recent series on immigration “Remade in America.” If you haven’t, you should consider checking it out.

I’m going to point you toward a sidebar to the series: The editors’ running commentary that posted online.

In one of the discussions, the editors invited three immigration specialists to weigh in on the Dream Act, which many of you know would give some young illegal immigrants a chance to become permanent residents if they join the military or attend college.

You can read their full statements here. I'm including a boiled down version of what I found most interesting.

Mark Krikorian is executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, which advocates for stronger immigration enforcement.

The issue is what to do about illegal aliens who were brought here as children and have grown up here. They made no decision to leave their native land and break another nation’s laws. And yet this may be the only country they’ve ever known.

Amnesty advocates use the predicament of such people (many of them adults at this point) to try to engineer a broad legalization of illegal immigrants. This, in fact, is the strategic purpose of bill, which would give amnesty to certain illegal immigrants brought here before age 16. Though its scope is not nearly as narrow as advocates would have you believe, it is nevertheless a targeted amnesty. But it is one designed to politically leverage the dilemma of the most sympathetic group of illegals into a more general amnesty.

A legislative package that might actually make sense would have a rigorous legalization process for longtime residents brought here illegally as children (unlike the Dream Act, which is so lax as to virtually guarantee massive fraud). To compensate for such an amnesty, and to ensure its finality, the package must also permanently end chain migration and turn off the magnet of jobs for illegal immigrants.

Tamar Jacoby is president of ImmigrationWorks USA, a federation of employers seeking an overhaul of immigration law.

…. Our fear and misplaced moralism are blinding us to our own interests.

Immigrants are assimilating, and we ought to reward them for it. The kids who would be covered under the Dream Act have mastered English. They’ve graduated from high school, often in families and neighborhoods where that’s difficult and discouraged. They’ve learned enough about America not just to fit in, but to succeed here. And many are willing to risk their lives for their new country.

But millions of newcomers, legal and illegal, are taking similar steps — although we do virtually nothing to help or encourage them. On the contrary, if they entered the country illegally — responding to our mixed signals, half-forbidding but half-inviting them to come do work we need done – we bar them from the very steps we say we want most from them: moving up the socioeconomic ladder and becoming fully participating members of society.

Photo: Paulina is a top student at her Charlotte High School. She wants to attend either UNC or Harvard. She recently visited Washington D.C. to lobby for the Dream Act. DAVID T. FOSTER


Vicente Duque said...

Mr Franco Ordonez

I just found this fine Blog of yours.

Congratulations for Useful and Excellent Blog with many informations that we need. Be assured that I will be a permanent visitor to this piece of Good Journalism.


Racist Radio Talk Show of G. Gordon Liddy On Sotomayor: ‘Let’s Hope That The Key Conferences Aren’t When She’s Menstruating’

On May 28, 2009 on his radio show, conservative host G. Gordon Liddy continued his right wing’s all-out assault on Judge Sonia Sotomayor. First, Liddy slammed Sotomayor’s affiliation with the civil rights group La Raza — and referred to the Spanish language as “illegal alien“:

LIDDY: I understand that they found out today that Miss Sotomayor is a member of La Raza, which means in illegal alien, “the race.” And that should not surprise anyone because she’s already on record with a number of racist comments.

Finished with the race-based attack, Liddy moved on to denigrate Sotomayor’s gender:

LIDDY: Let’s hope that the key conferences aren’t when she’s menstruating or something, or just before she’s going to menstruate. That would really be bad. Lord knows what we would get then.

Finally, Liddy disputed the entire idea that there’s anything wrong with the paucity of women and total lack of Hispanics on the Court:

LIDDY: And everybody is cheering because Hispanics and females have been, quote, underrepresented, unquote. And as you pointed out, which I thought was quite insightful, the Supreme Court is not designed to be and should not be a representative body.

G. Gordon Liddy On Sotomayor: 'Let's Hope That The Key Conferences Aren't When She's Menstruating'

Listen to the Audio of the Radio Talk Show here :

Vicente Duque

Anonymous said...

This blog, (like all his articles), is nothing but support for illegal activity. Mr. Ordonez is the main reason I cancelled my subscription to the Charlotte Observer. I refuse to pay a subscription to a newspaper that harbors such a person that welcomes illegal immigrants.

Anonymous said...

whats the point of having laws and borders with "logic" such as this?

Let's go ahead and invite the rest of the world to come and use up what resources we have left until it's all gone.

I bet if enough "tallyban" folks came they would not want to try and kill us anymore, because they could see for ourselves we are doing a good enough job on our own.

Anonymous said...

Boo Hoo...looking for sympathy for illegal immigrants? Don't think you will find a lot of it here...most posters like the majority of sane, intelligent and realistic US citizens agree that ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION NEEDS TO BE STOPPED, AT ALL COSTS!

Anonymous said...

Absolutely not. The "Dream Act", aka, "We want something we haven't paid for Act", is total BS.

In-state tuition is a benefit to North Carolinians who pay into the tax system. Those who don't pay into the tax system (people from other states) pay out of state rates.

This debate isn't even if they should be allowed at the colleges, but the in state rate. If someone is here illegaly, they "shouldn't" (according to the law) have a job that is paying state income taxes, therefor they aren't paying into the system. If they are going to be in that school in the first place, which is a different debate, then they certainly are going to pay out of state rates.

and Vicente Duque - good journalism isn't promoting an illegal point of view. Whatever you copied and pasted in certainly is racist in itself.

There are no genes for race. said...

Yes, illegal activities at colleges and universities should not be tolerated. That is why we should stomp out ALL ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES! Maybe we can start by making all students at colleges and universities submit a urine sample of drug testing. After all, who need rights if you are participating in unlawful acts. That way we can kill two birds with one stone. American or not, if you do the crime, THEN YOU MUST DO THE TIME! This IS about ILLEGAL activities and not about CLASSISM and RACISM, right?

Anonymous said...

What about all the American kids who are having trouble affording college (whose parents have been paying taxes and playing by the rules their whole lives) -- shouldn't we be talking about them??!

NO to the Dream Act amnesty.

Anonymous said...

The Dream Act: Pros and Cons:
For illegals - pros - higher education, probably on someone else's dime; cons - none

For American citizens - pros - none; cons - harder for our kids to get into college, harder for us to pay for college, our taxes helping someone else go instead of our own children

For universities - who cares? As long as they get money and more liberal students, doesn't matter.

Does that answer the question?

Anonymous said...

What about all the American kids who are having trouble affording college (whose parents have been paying taxes and playing by the rules their whole lives) -- shouldn't we be talking about them??!

NO to the Dream Act amnesty.


It is a certainty that the supporters of this "act" would never sacrifice one of their children s place in a university for that of an illegal, and that is precisely what makes this issue, and it's supporters
as dumb as a sack of cold grits.

Anonymous said...

I think that the DREAM Act should be as follows: Allow these kids to go to school, graduate and then go back to their country of birth for 5 years to try to improve their home. If they wish to return to the US, then they should go through legalization, even a fast track one. But by no means should they be allowed to bring their family with them.

Anonymous said...

LOL... speaking 'illegal alien'... oh my, G. Gordon Liddy is darn funny. I'm sure that that phrase will catch on... I made a point of using it today already.

I realize that this is a contentious issue, but I wish folks on both sides would stop with the ignorant-speak and stick to the facts. Name calling isn't going to get any of us anywhere.

Legality issues aside, I think it makes sense to allow illegals to pursue some kind of legal status by serving in the military or completing a four year degree. Four, not two, years. And at non-resident rates.

The bigger issue here is why our existing laws are being subverted not by illegals but by the U.S. citizens that are hiring them and shielding them from being deported. Local law enforcement has had their hands tied by city, state, and federal bureaucrats. Our laws need to be enforced... period. American citizens who hire illegals MUST be held accountable by being fined and/or put in jail. We're suffering the consequences of their hiring practices while they profit from illegal immigrant exploitation.

Anonymous said...

When is this pro illegal stance going to stop by the Charlotte Observer. Please we are very tired of seeing these. Why don't your talk about the cost of "English as Second Language" classrooms that we have. This should be stopped in all NC schools. Kids of illegals should be deported along with their parents. We should test the 14th amendment. If required pass a new amendment to stop this invasion.

Anonymous said...

10:15 - I agree. I can't imagine how much money the school system now spends on ELS teachers, all the paperwork that has to be printed in both English and Spanish, etc. This is draining our budgets. The state of NC has spent $61 million more dollars on the care of illegal immigrants, than they have paid in to the system. And where is all this money coming from? Legal citizens, no matter what nationality they were originally, who are paying NC taxes. Just look at what has happened to CA. Why do you think its government is bankrupt. And little by little this will be happening everywhere. Unless someone gets a backbone and puts a stop to this.

Anonymous said...

"But millions of newcomers, legal and illegal, are taking similar steps — although we do virtually nothing to help or encourage them. On the contrary, if they entered the country illegally — responding to our mixed signals, half-forbidding but half-inviting them to come do work we need done – we bar them from the very steps we say we want most from them: moving up the socioeconomic ladder and becoming fully participating members of society.
Let me see, so they get free public education and free healthcare and you call this "virtually doing nothing to help or encourage them"
I do not believe that people who emigrate legally ar etreatred in the way you describe by any means. As far as the undocumented immigrants, the fact that they receive police protection, free healthcare & free education, i think that i smore than enough help & encouragement

I say if you want to make a dream come true. No college., as the article metnions. Require 4 years of military service & then make college free jsut like a citizen. You serve four years in the lilitary. -Welcome new citezen.

SandT said...

Here is my idea for the perfect dream act:


MICHAEL said...

Tired, tired, tired of this *illegal* immigration blather.

Enforce the laws of this nation.

If you are in this country illegally, you are breaking the law. You are not entitled to anything in this country.

This country allows over 800,000 legal immigrants every single year, and some years more than a million. No other country in the world allows as many legal immigrants.... none. Millions more come here *illegally*.

So many ignorant people love to run their mouths about the "terrible" US, and yet so many still want to come here.

If you are here *illegally*, you are breaking the law... that's why you're called an *illegal* immigrant. Please, go back to your own country. If you are caught, don't cry some sob story. Perhaps, if so many of these *illegal* immigrants stayed in their own countries and tried to change *their* countries, make them better, there would eventually be no reason to leave. Fight to change *your* country, make it better... for your future generations.

If you are here *illegally* you do not deserve anything, it really is that simple. Either work to change your country, or work on coming here *LEGALLY*. Period.

The Indigenous Xicano said...

Despite what many of the posters on this blog may state, there are many benefits to the Dream Act.

First, I need to address the need for the Act. Why should children have to be held responsible for the behaviors of their parents? They had no control as to where their parents were going to relocate.

These youth have been raised here as Americans. For many, this is the only country that they know. it is mean-spirited to penalize innocent children.

We all will benefit from having a better educated populace who will earn more money and pay more taxes.

People with higher education and income have better health. Thus, these youth will become less of a drain as they age. We all benefit from having a healthier aging population.

I am only skimming on the benefits of the Dream Act. It is time for America to awaken and pass the Dream Act.

In fact, I guarantee you that it will pass within a year.

No doubt about it.

Anonymous said...

The kind of words that YOU use to express your feelings against illegals is because you are not better than them.

whatever you said is not going to change what it is certainly coming. Illegals will be LEGALS SOON.
Get the picture?

MICHAEL said...

Anonymous said...

barkomomma said...

Looks like Franco's become the new Tonya as a lightening rod to draw web traffic in a lame attempt to convince advertisers that the Observer is still relevant.


Anonymous said...

Tell you what, Franco. In exchange for the DREAM act, going forward all Hispanics give up their more privileged place in line for affirmative action goodies and take on the status of, say, Asians.

MICHAEL said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MICHAEL said...

Illegal immigrants are stealing people's identities, ruining their credit, taking the identities of children, too. The ones not using a stolen SS number are not paying taxes. They take jobs and hold down wages in every industry they work. They have become an additional burden to social services, hospitals and our schools. When my parents came to this country from Greece, they did it *LEGALLY*. They had no Greek words plastered on everything and there aren't any special Greek classes in public schools. They had to learn English and they did. I am so tired of this country bending over backwards to make it easy for *illegal* immigrants to invade our country. Enough already. Enforce our laws!

Every country has immigration laws; a lot of countries have much stricter laws and hasher consequences than we come close to. Our immigration laws are quite liberal in comparison to Mexico, Central and South American countries. Especially, our path to citizenship and what foreigners can own are much looser than many countries. I get so tired of the hypocritical blather that leaders of other countries spew against the US about our debate on *illegal* immigrants. It's ironic the massive amount of insults and criticisms hurled at the US, and yet so many are beating down our doors and dying to come here... year after year after year.

The US accepts more legal immigrants, every single year, than any other country- 800,000 to 1,000,000. We don't want legal immigration to stop. But, the overwhelming flood of *illegal* immigrants must stop. We cannot afford it; we can barely take care of our own citizens. People need to wake up, stop this insanity. Without *enforcing* our *laws* the situation has gotten out of control. Resentment and anger are resulting from this lack of enforcement and seemingly the government just ignoring the situation. The government's unwillingness to do its job is really responsible for the increasing backlash against illegal immigrants, which is spilling over to all immigrants in general. People want something done, they want the laws enforced. Or, they start getting angry, some even taking the law into their own hands. Because the government, local, state and federal have let things get this point, it is harder to fix. It's like many things the government does, ignore it until it becomes a looming disaster. Enforce our laws and enforce them now.

People's lives, US citizens' lives are being ruined and turned upside down because of this mess. Because- our government doesn’t want to upset those that are breaking the law or condone such activity. Think about that for a minute. It's a ludicrous situation and simply is *not* right. Powerful business interests love the cheap labor and Democrats love the idea of future voters, since the majority of Hispanics typically vote for a Democrat. Enough is enough.

The articles below are just the tip of the iceberg. It's past time to do the right thing, and the right thing is to enforce the laws of this country. Enforce our laws!



Her ATM card, illegal immigrant's face

The secret list of ID theft victims

Anonymous said...

"The US accepts more legal immigrants, every single year, than any other country- 800,000 to 1,000,000. We don't want legal immigration to stop."

Michael, a very excellent post other than the highlighted text above. I want legal immigration to stop -- at least as currently construed. The mass immigration from the 3rd world that LEGALLY immigrates to this country is in many ways just as bad as the illegal immigration. The reason is that much of our legal immigration is construed from the same type of immigrants as our illegal immigrants. What can therefore much be the difference between the two?

Ted Kennedy and his ilk are the designers of our current legal immigration system. I can't think of one thing that he has ever done that has turned out well -- and immigration ain't the exception. Mass immigration is an anachronism that no longer works in our modern technology economy and welfare state country. Given that activist judges have forced us to cover many entitlements and other freebies to everyone we have to consider not only immigrants contributions but their costs. Bottom line, uneducated, low-skilled, English challenged immigrants (legal and otherwise)simply costs us more than they contribute.

Our mass immigration system is essentially a welfare program for the lucky winners of the 3rd world that successfully navigate our system. Don't we already have enough welfare?

We already have a country with over 300 million people that is projected to grow by another 150 million by 2050. Why do we need to grow our population to this level and stress our infrastructure and quality of life to accomodate yet more people? How much is enough? We no longer have an unsettled interior to secure and devlop -- mass immigration just no longer makes any kind of sense from the standpoint of what it adds to the experience and benefit of current citizens.

Yes illegal immigration is very bad as you so well state, but in many ways our legal immigration system is just as bad and provides the cover and base for the illegals to hide and subsist. Let's end both legal and illegal immigration.

Michael said...

I believe we should allow a certain amount of legal immigration. My parents came to this country from Greece, worked hard and have a very good life. I an thankful they had the opprotunity to do, I love this country. So, I support legal immigration. Just as long as it's not too much. We can only absorb so much before it really is not healthy for the infrastructure and the economy.

Anonymous said...

"So, I support legal immigration. Just as long as it's not too much."

1 Million plus per year is waaaaay too much -- particularly when it is comprised primarily of immigrants that don't pass the cost benefit analysis as the current Kennedy designed system produces.

Read some from Mark Krikorian -- he excellently dispels the falsehood that our current legal immigration system is much better than our tolerance of illegal immigration.

Michael said...

Over a million is not the average year, that's around 800,000 a year. The last time it was a million was 2005. In 2005, the governemnt made an extra effort to bring some families here of those already here.

Look, I don't believe all those allowed in should pass some "cost benefit". I believe some need to be given a chance for a better life, regardless of their status or education. If I belived otherwise, I would be a hypocrite and disrespect my parents and the opprotunity they were given when they came here.

Vicente Duque said...

Mr Franco Ordonez :

Thanks for your important presence. We will read you very often.

After reading the posts in this thread I say very loudly and challenging :

We are powerful, we are very powerful, we are extremely powerful.

Because we have the power of enthusiasm, Youth, writing, of thinking, of reasoning, and the power of laughing and humor.

So let's look ahead at the Future.


Republicans smearing Sonia Sotomayor ( and Latinos ) :

Republicans digging a hole in which they are going to be trapped for years.

The vileness with which the radical right wing has attacked Supreme Court Judge nominee Sonia Sotomayor may cost the Republican party in votes for many years to come.

I think that Latinos and other Minorities should be informed on the baseness, vulgarity and aggressivity of all these guys and what they have said against Sonia Sotomayor.

That is our task as bloggers, even if we are small or tiny or little ants, we should push against Racist Scoundrels.

Many Whites also dislike the vulgarity, grossness, tastelessness of all these people that accuse Judge Sotomayor of being a Racist, when in fact many of them are long life Racists.

These people are like the proverbial donkey that laughed at the big ears of other quadrupeds.

Many attacks and answers against vulgarity here :

Vicente Duque

Anonymous said...

Interesting article as for me. It would be great to read a bit more about this matter.
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Anonymous said...

hey guess what!!!!! the people who blew up the towers on 9/11 were legal citizens! and enjoyed every right that US could possible give to a person.
is not right to call those who want a better future and better education "criminals". they are not harming you! in fact, they work all day so you could have fresh fruit and clean clothes to wear for work! so you can sit all day long at work and enjoy your paid vacations!

and for those people who are complaining about their kids going to college, the word is SCHOLARSHIP! something that illegal aliens CANT get, not even with the Dream Act!

Anonymous said...

Wow. What is up with you people? You keep complaining about ilegal aliens. DOnt you think our world's problems are more important. And even if America did get rid of all Illegal Aliens, who would do their jobs? Certainly not any of you people. You whine and moan about working 8 hour shifts when field workers works well into 12 or more hours. Besides, protecting the constitution is important,but EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN HERE IS AN ILLEGAL ALIEN. Imagine what went through the heads of the natives before Britain colonized the east. So why is evering talking about illegals in such a bad way, when your an illegal to this great country.

This bill will not make all illegals legal. Just those who were smart enough to graduate high school and want to persue further education.

Anonymous said...

WOW. i had no i idea there was this much hate in this country, it's kinda sad. I've know a few illegal alien families. they pay taxes, work hard at jobs nobody wants, and thier children do great in school. They're just people trying to make a living.

Anonymous said...

Which group of people work so you can get your Big Mac? So your office and your house is clean? So you don't have to do all your dirty work?
The "illegals" you want out of this country.
I am a high school student whose parents PAY taxes even though we're not from here. I don't know how there can be so much hatred towards people like that. If the Dream Act passes it will be for kids like me who have actually worked hard in high school and ARE going to a university. It wasn't my decision to come here, it was my parents. The people who are opposing the Dream Act are afraid that us "illegals" are going to take their kids education and jobs away, well let me just say that is DUMB.
There are plenty of legal kids that drop out of school or choose to not succeed in their life. And sure, not everyone can afford college, but there are SCHOLARSHIPS! And if someone else is taking your job in some high end corporation, it's because YOU aren't fit enough for that job, or you're not doing it well. So stop complaining about how we take everything from you because we don't. We take everything you don't want and make something out of it.

Racism is something this country, even with the Civil Rights movement has not managed to get over.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
austi said...

To those souls that have noting but a will to step on others that have probably tried harder than they to embrace what it means to be American, Well, considering the fact that a lot of the good to do immigrants here in the United States because of a a few foul opinions about minorities. All these people want is a chance to be something, and forcing them into shanty towns and pushing further and further down the food chain is not going to fix the problem/ You're forcing these people into drugs and illegal activities to make ends meet, since they can't work legally, well at least they're working, unlike so many of the homeless beggars here in America, very few of which ever turn out to be Hispanic. It looks like the minorities are more worthy of a better life being that they look for it wherever it may be presented.

Anonymous said...

I love how people wanna talk about deporting illegal aliens,stopping E.S.L. classes and complaining about taxes . First of all it is not anybody's fault that many american students want to be high school drop outs and not attend college. It is not anybody's fault they have no dreams and aspirations. Taxes are high because there are so many un educated people doing rediculous acts. I wont say what to give the reader a chance to anylyze.
* to the person that wrotte my people came from Greece illegally and they had to learn english and deal with it and now our laws must be enforced. Must you be so ignorant of the facts that if this countries laws were so enforced you would have probably never been able to sit there and voice your opinion . Think before you attack anyone on any basis .. a judgement with dirty hands is only an act of poor instruction.
I must sleep now , I have classes tomorrow in the A.M. .
to be continued................

hallie said...


"Illegal alien sneaks their child into country, commits felony after felony, the US taxpayer has to pay to educate, etc. the illegal child, and then the child complains that they want to be rewarded because their parents are criminals! And the victims of this crime (US taxpayer) is supposed to reward the children of the criminal"
"Some of those kids LEFT the only country than had known, family and friends, came to a country not kno wing the language and culture and has been a great culture shock and have joined gangs to have the culture of their famlies" Plus they hate Americans as their parents do."
"Children of illegal aliens have the culture and language of their parents and don't lose it because they are hear. Parents often have not learned english and assimilated.
"These kids are not get out of jail free cards and american kids suffer for the crime of their parents all the time and we cannot protect them all the time."

Leyvi said...

I think hallie meant here* instead of hear*...